Ep. 142 | A Piece of Your Mind vs. the Peace of Christ

Sep 8

With Carmen LaBerge

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube

What if the thing that finally made God feel real to you wasn't a sermon, but a season of grief you never asked for?

In this episode of the 100xLife Podcast, Rob Dayton sits down with Carmen LaBerge, host of the daily syndicated radio program The Reconnect with Carmen LaBerge and a longtime friend of the podcast. Carmen holds a Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, but this conversation isn't about credentials. It's about what actually makes faith real.

Carmen traces her story back to age fifteen, when she lost a close friend and then her father within the same year. In the middle of that grief, she describes an experience of God that's never left her: being held. That sense of being held is what allows her to walk into hard conversations and other people's pain without flinching.

From there, the conversation moves into what it looks like to bring Christ into everyday conversations without sounding like a sermon, including Carmen's framework for evaluating her own thought life, and a candid conversation about how easily Christians drift toward the occult without realizing it.

You'll Hear

Carmen's story of losing her father at fifteen, and being "held" by God
Why she says "your business belongs to God"
Her daily practice of asking "where in the word are you today?"
Her framework for evaluating your thought life: what, how, and why you're thinking
The difference between "a piece of your mind" and "the peace of the mind of Christ"
How Christians unknowingly drift toward the occult

Journal Prompts

Holy Spirit, show me a thought I'm having that is inconsistent with the mind of Christ.
Holy Spirit, give me the prevailing thought you want me to have that is like Christ's.

About Carmen LaBerge
Carmen is a Christian media personality committed to getting God into every conversation. She lives with her husband, Jim, on a farm in middle Tennessee and hosts The Reconnect with Carmen LaBerge. She holds degrees from the University of Florida (BS/BA, 1990) and Princeton Theological Seminary (MDiv, 1993), and is the author of Speak the Truth: How to Get God Back Into Every Conversation.

📘 Speak the Truth by Carmen LaBerge → https://a.co/d/02109F1i
🌐 Carmen's Substack (most active here) → https://carmenlaberge.substack.com/
🌐 All of Carmen's content → https://carmenlaberge.com/

Recommended Reading
📖 Imagine Heaven by John Burke → https://a.co/d/05iwZxU5
📖 Surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis → https://a.co/d/0aiLgLdn

Rob Dayton (00:00)
Welcome to the 100X Life Podcast, where we activate people who desire to live the words of Jesus and experience the abundant life He promises. I'm your host, Rob Dayton, and I hope this podcast inspires you to put in the work of following Jesus.
Rob Dayton (00:36)
Hey 100x lifers, welcome back to the podcast. I have a very special guest with me today. Carmen LeBerge is with the reconnect. She has a radio show that has become a podcast. And actually, we have been, she's had me on her show because of 100x life, and we've been talking about that over months now. and I'm really excited to hear about her ministry, her journey.
She actually has this is what I'm very interested in. She has a master divinity from Princeton, the theological seminary. And like how many people have that? She's been running in denominational circles and like really helping churches understand differences and been through some interesting battles. Maybe we'll get through to that and find out about that. But really has this heart. And this is what I love about you, Carmen, is that you have this heart.
To reconnect, I think that's a really appropriate term for you, to reconnect people to Christ in a way that's practical, that is easy, that is in conversations, that is not awkward. And it seems to me that that might be why we connect in terms
Carmen LaBerge (01:47)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dayton (01:47)
of our ministry. Welcome to the podcast, Carmen LeBerge
Carmen LaBerge (01:51)
Thank you. I can tell you, Rob, why we connect.
Rob Dayton (01:54)
Let's go.
Carmen LaBerge (01:55)
Jesus is real to you. and
Rob Dayton (01:57)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (01:58)
so when I discover someone who isn't going through the motions, isn't practicing some sort of like propositional approach to the faith, when I meet somebody who like you know that they know.
Rob Dayton (02:12)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (02:13)
then I'm like, I want them to come alongside us. Let's go alongside them. Like, we're gonna be in this together for eternity. And right
Rob Dayton (02:21)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (02:22)
now we happen to be inhabiting the same space at the same time, speaking literally the same language. And so we ought to take the opportunity to get to know each other, to encourage one another, to fan the flame of the other person's thing. Like, right. So I view I would say that's that's why we keep having you back on the reconnect.
not just because, you know, your content is good and you connect with the audience and all those things. I mean, that's wonderful. But you're living it and people need living demonstrations of the kingdom of heaven in the midst of the kingdoms of this world, so that they can in their own life, like, that's what it looks like to walk with Jesus in intimacy through challenges in times of plenty and want, joy, sorrow, like
Rob Dayton (03:06)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (03:07)
all of it. So
that's why we're in what we're in together, because we are in it together as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Rob Dayton (03:13)
That's so cool. I love that. It's almost like you're talking about a there's an authenticity and people don't need to use words. I find this very common in my in my business I I'm a an executive coach of cities. it's a pre Christian environment. We're not talking about the kingdom openly. And I commonly get the comment like I when I first met Rob, he's just there's no way he can be real because he's so full of joy. And then turns out, yeah, he's you know.
And then of course they look at my bio and they find out, he's a he loves Jesus. He's a he's a follower. So that that resonates with me. And then you and that is are always looking, maybe you're looking for that authenticity in conversations. And I want to get into that about the radio show and and how you do that and what you're looking for. I'm really interested in kind of your outcome. Like everyone has a passionate outcome they want to see, particularly for the kingdom. I want to start our conversation with this Princeton.
Carmen LaBerge (04:08)
Yeah.
Rob Dayton (04:08)
Masters
of Divinity. Cause it's just like so crazy to me all the things I've heard about
Carmen LaBerge (04:14)
Yeah.
Rob Dayton (04:15)
particularly Princeton and like and like where they've gone, because they used to be like a completely focused, God-centered school developed, developed on Christianity. And so what was that experience like? What did you what was your journey like in that place?
Carmen LaBerge (04:30)
So, I would love to tell you that I was making all of these like really strategic choices and I had a game plan and a life plan and all of that. Really, I will just tell you, Rob, I am the person who does literally the next thing that God puts in front of them that seems like it's an obvious God thing. So I if you were to look at my like career path, you'd be like, This is like a Rorschach test. there is seemingly no pattern to this. And I'm sure at the end of my life.
God will be gracious enough to say, here was the pattern. but there
Rob Dayton (04:59)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (05:00)
there if you were gonna say, there's a ladder and this is how you should climb it, either I never discovered it or I was never even looking for it. So I have done a little bit of everything in terms of I mean, what the world would call ministry, what I would just say, these are the things that God's put in front of me to do, and so I have done them.
And making the most of every opportunity. And so, in order to understand I think why I ended up in seminary at all, you know, we'd to track back to when I r when I came to know Christ and gave all of myself that I understood to all of him that I understood. And so call that whatever you want. Yeah. Well, I mean, I was fifteen.
Rob Dayton (05:37)
I love that caveat, all that I understood. And
and how much can you understand? Like how much do we understand even now?
Carmen LaBerge (05:45)
Right. Like, so I mean, that whole like one day you will you will know fully even as you are fully known, that's because like I am still absolutely in the discovery process. I still like my jaw still drops when I learn things about God and I am like or things that I've I've read a thousand times, maybe a hundred times in the Bible, and I'm like, Where has that been? I mean, I
Rob Dayton (06:09)
Right.
Carmen LaBerge (06:09)
So I have
moments of awakening, I or discovery, aha moments, like they they still come and I and that thrills my heart. so when I was fifteen, my dad, who was forty-three, president of his own company, bigger than life kind of guy, he died of a heart attack. And that was life changing in lots
Rob Dayton (06:28)
Big time.
Carmen LaBerge (06:28)
of ways for our little family. but it was also provocative to me. I mean I'd been raised in a church
I have a Bible that says I was confirmed in the seventh grade. I literally have no memory of like confirmation class or any of that. So it wasn't real to me. I was going through the motions
Rob Dayton (06:47)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (06:47)
of, you know, being a Christian in a Christian household in America. but when my dad died, and it hadn't been my first
sort of close encounter with death. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, who is such a lover of Jesus, she had passed away, a dear friend in high school. I was a sophomore. Carol Kennedy was a senior. she was the pitcher, I was the catcher on our Allstate softball team. And she was killed in a traffic acc in a car accident.
Rob Dayton (07:14)
The same year.
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (07:16)
and that was and my dad is one of the people who was our coach in
not the school league but in little league. And so he was influential in that process after Carol died, shepherding, you know, some of the girls on our team and and all of that. And then just a couple of months later he was dead. And so I'm asking questions that most people my age are not asking and thanks be to God
Kathy Connor, who was my young life leader, was there to, I don't want to say answer all the questions because that wouldn't be fair to the way that she did it. she enfleshed the gospel in such a way that I could walk through the pain of that experience and discover I was not alone. Not just that I was not alone because she was there.
But that God was present and working and had not abandoned me or forsaken me, that I I wasn't gonna have a father wound or a father vacuum because God the Father was there to fill it.
Rob Dayton (08:20)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (08:21)
I mean, I I just so all of that is a part of how I ended up at Princeton Seminary after getting a finance degree at the University of Florida. So yeah.
Rob Dayton (08:30)
Can I pause on that? Because I love
this I love this story where you have these you you're not really thinking spiritually. You're you're you know, you're young, we're in we're in sports, we're doing well at sports, and then you have this one two punch, which is death. And it's interesting because death is a construct of this world and creation. How would you describe that that brought you into connection, yes, with God, but a
better understanding of love. Is there something there that actually helps you understand love more than you had before in terms of God?
Carmen LaBerge (09:08)
that's an excellent question.
When I think about the way I most intimately experience love, it might be the sense of being held.
Rob Dayton (09:16)
Wow. Right. So you so you had a comforting
Carmen LaBerge (09:18)
Is that that might
Rob Dayton (09:20)
that came over you. And isn't that that's so crazy to me to have this in this kingdom where you have this death and then now you're being held.
Carmen LaBerge (09:30)
Yeah. So I think that I mean, if I were to if I were to consider how intimate and like tangible God is to me, my experience of God has been an experience of being held. So I'm not a person who experiences doubt about
God's presence, his goodness, his provision, his sovereignty. I mean, I know you can count on him. He is present. He's i if you're not aware of him, it's not that he has abandoned you. it's that you're facing the wrong direction.
Rob Dayton (10:05)
Wow. And would you say
that that experience, because this it occurs to me the way you're talking, Carmen, is that this is now hardwired. You can't, you're not gonna get rid of this. This is now a part of your thinking. You have, you've gone through this repentance, you've changed the way you think, and then, and then this has all been sparked by death, which is that's what's so profound to me.
Carmen LaBerge (10:26)
Yeah, I yeah,
I am super familiar with the Valley of the Shadow. I walk
Rob Dayton (10:32)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (10:33)
I mean I walk comfortably in the Valley of
Rob Dayton (10:36)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (10:36)
the Shadow. and and you know because people die all the time. You know
Rob Dayton (10:42)
No one's getting out alive.
Carmen LaBerge (10:43)
There's just this wide open opportunity. If you are willing to enter into the valley, you're comfortable there. You know what, you know there's a way back out. Like, you know the shepherd that has has walked it. Like the privilege of walking with somebody in the Valley of the Shadow, like I I don't avoid it. I count it a privilege. I'm getting into people's business all the time when
Rob Dayton (11:05)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (11:06)
it comes to those kinds of conversations. I mean, we have a culture that is on the one end
not obsessed with life and on the other end, obsessed with the extension of this physical or mortal life, like I mean it to totally obsessed.
Rob Dayton (11:19)
Yeah, even even Christians
wanna go to heaven but don't wanna die to get there.
Carmen LaBerge (11:25)
Right. I'm like dying to get there. I'm I'm
Rob Dayton (11:27)
That's all.
Carmen LaBerge (11:30)
I am definitely a you do not have to worry I mean, when I die, you don't have to worry. It'd be really fun to know now that we're gonna spend eternity together. I can already tell you where I'm gonna be.
Who I'm gonna be with and what I'm gonna be doing. So if you think it's fun to be with me, like I can I can lead you I can lead you to the one who has made the way. I know how to get there, I know what it's gonna be like, and I would love to share that with you. And I hope that
The way that I live now, the conversations that that I get to have, the thoughts I get to provoke, that all of it is tilling the soil that's ultimately eternal. Like,
Rob Dayton (12:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (12:11)
I mean, I want people to be cultivating a harvest of righteousness to the glory of God in the here and now because there is a
Rob Dayton (12:19)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (12:19)
forever after.
Rob Dayton (12:21)
Come on. I love I love that language that you and this is the way you occur to me too, is like, and and maybe it's why we kind of dance well together here is that you like to provoke thought. And when I think of you saying that, it I totally connects to me with Jesus' number one thing, which is change the way you think. And you're provoking a transformation of thought.
And what and would you say, I mean, this is fascinating that this starts at age fifteen and you feel this comforted, you're being held. Now I get it. I can walk through the valley of shadow death. This this world cannot give me anything that's going to disrupt that comfort anymore. Now I've got bravery. And you said something earlier about your pursuit has always been what you know, there's no rhyme or reason to your life.
It's just where God has gone, where he's going, where Jesus is going. I wanted to go and so I went there. And so is that where we find ourselves in your in your knowledge at this age to God like maybe Princeton is the way to go.
Carmen LaBerge (13:26)
Yeah, so my sister would describe it this way. She's a couple of years older than me. And she every time that I, you know, go do something that's just radically different than either what everybody thought I would do or I was prepared to do educationally or whatever. And she's like you keep reinventing yourself. And I'm thinking to myself, Hmm, I'm not really doing anything. Like I'm literally just like
Ooh and I it's not like ooh bright shiny penny, let's go over there. It's literally like okay, this needs doing. I have the relationships and the equipping to do it. It looks like a wide open door and
Rob Dayton (14:03)
Let's go.
Carmen LaBerge (14:03)
And I am definitely, Rob, one of those people that like is like if other people are doing this or have done it, I can do it. Like I I definitely have enough of a can
Rob Dayton (14:11)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (14:11)
do spirit and that's my mom. Like we could have a whole conversation about that. But like that's that's definitely my mother's influence, the can do spirit in all of it. and so yeah, to answer your question, like how then okay, so Princeton. So I
was working as a volunteer leader for young life when I was in college and I was on student staff, but I was also getting a degree in it I mean I mean I have a business degree, business administration and finance, which is a wonderful practical degree to have, no matter what God ends up calling you to do. and so it's it's also
Rob Dayton (14:43)
I mean it's all his money. If you know how to manage his money better, then that's good.
Carmen LaBerge (14:47)
it's also all his business.
Rob Dayton (14:49)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (14:50)
When people are like, you can't be getting into other people's business, I'm like pfft
It's all the father's business. Is that is this is something
Rob Dayton (14:56)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (14:56)
that's like outside of God's economy? No. So if it's the father's business and I'm in business for him, whatever the business is, then I'm getting into your business because your business isn't your business anyway. Your business belongs to him.
Rob Dayton (15:10)
Wow, I've never heard it that way. And then and then how do you make that? Let's let's chase that for a little bit because that sounds super profound and disruptive, disruptive, provoking thought. Is that we're every so God's business and we're in business. And so therefore it's all God's business. I was starting with the thought is like every God owns it all, which He does is you don't even own any money. Everything you have is his. And then you're translating that into all our businesses is also so I can actually get into your business. How do you make that?
safe for people. And then the thought that comes with, you know, immediately to me and and maybe yours is that if if you don't have love, then that getting in your business is like a clanging bell. But if I have love, which in the in the pre-Christian space I call it ferociously advocating for someone, in business, then that is that the pathway where we make it okay and you can actually engage in everyone's business?
Carmen LaBerge (16:07)
Well the first thing that comes to mind when you start to probe that, is just the influence that you have because you are a person possessed of the Holy Spirit.
Rob Dayton (16:17)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (16:17)
And so when other people are like running away, 'cause maybe it's a high conflict zone, maybe somebody isn't just raising their voice, but like you're just like, I that that's their business, like whatever it is, right? And so,
Are you the person that moves your grocery cart as fast as possible away from the conflict? Or are you like, I suddenly need some sauce? And they are in the sauce aisle. so because I know in the same way that the spirit of the world is influencing a situation, I know that I'm possessed of the Holy Spirit.
And that just by simply moving into that space, I have influence. So if you are possessed
Rob Dayton (16:58)
Wow. So good.
Carmen LaBerge (17:00)
of the peace which surpasses understanding, you may not even have to open your mouth.
Rob Dayton (17:05)
There it is.
Carmen LaBerge (17:05)
I
mean you just you just might not. So, you know, there's conflict in, you know, in the room where the copy machine is and you know it. Do you avoid
Rob Dayton (17:12)
You bring your presence.
Carmen LaBerge (17:14)
do you avoid that room or do you, by your physical presence, move into that room
Rob Dayton (17:19)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (17:20)
and suddenly have a need to be in there? And so y the other the the people who are engaged in whatever the conflict is.
The presence of the Holy Spirit has just entered the room because you showed up. Now, you're
Rob Dayton (17:32)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (17:33)
not saying that, but you are knowing that. So this goes back to
Rob Dayton (17:37)
And hopefully thinking that, I mean, you'd really have to have a transformed mind
Carmen LaBerge (17:41)
yeah.
Rob Dayton (17:41)
to have the presence of mind that I contain that peace is peace and joy are actually dwelling in me, and that my by me being present, it is also with you too.
Carmen LaBerge (17:54)
Yeah, this is an identity conversation that you're
Rob Dayton (17:56)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (17:57)
getting to. So, who are you and what do you do? Like great, who are you and what do you do? I am a daughter of the king, I'm an ambassador of the kingdom of heaven, I'm a minister of reconciliation, I'm a sower of peace.
I'm an agent of grace, whichever, you know, it could you could be a secret agent of grace, that's fine too. Like, but you have to know who you are. I don't care where you where you are, and I don't really care what you're doing. What you're doing, no matter no matter what else you're doing, you are representing Christ.
In the midst of the kingdoms of this world. You are an ambassador
Rob Dayton (18:29)
Mm, yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (18:31)
of the kingdom of heaven in the midst of the kingdoms of this world. So when you say you don't have to think about it before you move into that space, like, I'm possessed of the Holy Spirit, I'm gonna give the Holy Spirit the room, although I do intentionally do that in prayer before I walk into a space where I either know I'm gonna be required to speak or I don't have no idea what's going on, but I'm led to go in that direction. I intentionally give the Holy Spirit the room.
Rob Dayton (18:57)
Mm. It's kinda it's kinda like
Carmen LaBerge (18:57)
And I would recomm
Rob Dayton (18:58)
an egg just acknowledgement. And is that is that to set you up for hearing better?
Carmen LaBerge (19:04)
It's a reminder to me of who I am, who I'm representing. Right? Repres it's it's a representation role, but in the culture today, it's not like they already know him. So you are representing for many people for the very first time what love looks like, what
Rob Dayton (19:20)
Yeah. Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (19:22)
peace, what peace feels like.
What confidence is the right kind, not a prideful confidence, but a walking in the confidence and assurance that I'm not alone, I'm on a mission, God's got something that he's doing, and he loves these people. God loves whoever it is that's in conflict. God loves them and God wants them. I might not want them. I mean, you know, just to be perfectly honest, I'm like,
Rob Dayton (19:48)
Super honest.
Carmen LaBerge (19:49)
I
These are not even people I like. But it's not about me. And it is literally like I'm the agent of grace that God has deployed right there in that particular mission field at that particular moment. And it's my opportunity to get in there. for me, Rob, I mean, one of the sort of identity realities. I want the enemy.
I don't know. We sh we probably can't use bad language, so but everyone will know the word that I'm going to be referring to. Like,
Rob Dayton (20:19)
Okay, okay.
Carmen LaBerge (20:20)
I want the enemy to be like, she's awake. Like,
Rob Dayton (20:24)
Right. Here she comes.
Carmen LaBerge (20:26)
I she's awake. Like, I and I wish everybody else felt that way about every moment of life. Like,
Rob Dayton (20:32)
Totally.
Carmen LaBerge (20:33)
there is an opportunity to take back territory today.
So, I mean, I let's get busy. Like, the enemy, the enemy thinks he's got he's laying claim and he's got territory and people and la. I'm like, no. it all came from God. It's ultimately all returning to God. It's all his. And I am possessed of his spirit.
Called by his name, sent by his son, invited on a you know, to be a co-missionary with Christ on his mission to do what? So love the world.
Rob Dayton (21:06)
So good. Yeah. And I love that talk about territory, and the way I always like to look at it is that Jesus said, All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me, and that means someone else has none. So I like to think of it as is we're the we are actually the challenge, and particularly the Jesus follower who gives their authority to the enemy through unforgiveness, condemnation, judgment. And so when I think about
Taking back territory. I just think about reserving it and not giving it away. How
Carmen LaBerge (21:37)
It's good.
Rob Dayton (21:37)
does that like so you're in someone's business and you're coming in with love, you're coming in with presence, maybe you're speaking, maybe you're not. How does that work on the radio? Like you're talking to a guest. How does that work on the radio? Do you do you disrupt
Carmen LaBerge (21:50)
So well
Rob Dayton (21:51)
in those cases without you're talking to somebody you might disagree with or?
Carmen LaBerge (21:55)
Well, okay, so your perception is that when you're when you are on the show, you and I are the people in the conversation. But really,
Rob Dayton (22:02)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (22:04)
I'm always talking to someone else. I'm always talking to the listener.
Rob Dayton (22:07)
Completely.
Carmen LaBerge (22:09)
And you have come into the conversation that I'm already having with them. and so I've invited you for a purpose.
because I hear from listeners all the time. I know what's going on in their in their world, in their lives, I know the challenges they're facing, the questions that they're asking. And so,
Rob Dayton (22:25)
You know their business.
Carmen LaBerge (22:27)
yeah, I know their business. And they they are coming to the reconnect because well, those who show up intentionally. I mean, you there's our there are people who just like happen upon it, right? And I'm like, mm, well, you're not here by accident. So
Rob Dayton (22:41)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (22:43)
the people who come intentionally know that we are seeking to cultivate the mind of Christ on the matters of the day so that we can walk our faith out into the world that God so loves and do so in ways that honor Jesus. Like we're trying to reconnect the eternal with the everyday to get Christians prepared for everything that's gonna happen, whatever it is. And some
Rob Dayton (23:01)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (23:01)
of it we know because Jesus has told us what to expect. and so at the end of the show I always remind people to expect the unexpected, and that's
You could take that positively or negatively, like right. Expect always the unexpected. knowing that with God all things are possible. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Dayton (23:16)
It's kind of part of your story. Like the
un the unexpected happened. And the result for you is I feel comforted and I'm and I know I have a steadfast love that is is never gonna leave. I don't have to worry about the unexpected anymore. So you're inviting your listeners into that same space.
Carmen LaBerge (23:34)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rob Dayton (23:35)
So cool.
That's amazing. Well, so tell me about 100x life and what attracted you to like even thinking about that and like who's this Rob guy? And what what where do where do you connect on these words of Jesus? Cause like for me, I looked at the what we call the Great Commission teaching them everything I have commanded you. And I'm thinking, this this can't just refer to the whole Bible. This is
He's talking about his stuff and then go wanting to find out, okay, well, what were the things? What was what was attracted to you about that concept or that the words of Jesus?
Carmen LaBerge (24:14)
Well first I appreciated that you know, take this the right way, but like you're a regular person. Right? I'm just saying that like rate so sometimes the only people who are opening the Bible with other people are doing so from a position or a platform or a
I mean this is the Ivory Tower part of the conversation, right? They're
Rob Dayton (24:35)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (24:36)
they're doing so in a way that is like it's like from here up. Like it's it's like right here. And it never gets down to here and it certainly doesn't get to here. Yeah. Or the or you know
Rob Dayton (24:45)
Doesn't get to the heart. Yeah. So it's more like
thinking about I like I someone said it. I I don't actually don't know who said it, but theology can't save you, only Jesus can save you. Is it where you're in
Carmen LaBerge (24:57)
It's good.
Rob Dayton (24:58)
this conversation of like a it's more theological, heavy versus personal and intimate?
Carmen LaBerge (25:04)
Well, I can slice the theological pie with the best of them. Okay. But I
Rob Dayton (25:07)
Yeah. I bet you can.
Carmen LaBerge (25:11)
also know that that slicing theological pie does not help reveal to anybody that there's actual pie. Like
Rob Dayton (25:19)
Let's go.
Carmen LaBerge (25:21)
if people knew there was actual pie, like right, they might be like interested to come and taste and see that the Lord is good. But we're so busy, like, micro slicing the pie that
Like right? So so I think that that's part of it. I think that I
Rob Dayton (25:33)
That is
so true. I just like that is so well said. Keep going.
Carmen LaBerge (25:38)
Well, and so I think that I was attracted to here's a real person who is walking a real journey of faith and doing so with the with the scriptures open and seeking to not just
have a head knowledge or understanding of what the word says, but to know the one who is the word, Jesus. So every single day on the reconnect, I ask the question, where in the word are you today? And we get into the word of God before we get into anything else because everybody's full of something. You know this. Everybody's full of something. And
Rob Dayton (26:10)
Yeah. Everybody is.
Carmen LaBerge (26:13)
I want I want to be and I want my people to be full of grace and truth. And the only way to Yeah.
Rob Dayton (26:17)
And they're and they're full.
Let let's put words to that, 'cause when we say they're full of something, in my mind I hear you say they're full of a certain way of thinking and we were talking about identity. That's what they're full of. Is that what you mean?
Carmen LaBerge (26:31)
Well, I mean, you know, to be cross, I mean like you're full of it, right? I mean like the world I mean like I'm just saying like everybody's full of something. And and the and the wor the
Rob Dayton (26:38)
Something right.
Carmen LaBerge (26:40)
world is gonna squeeze you. I don't know how the world is gonna squeeze you today. I don't know how the world is gonna squeeze me today. But I can guarantee you you're gonna get squeezed. And
Rob Dayton (26:51)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (26:52)
so what's the juice? Like what comes out? And is it
Rob Dayton (26:56)
What gets
revealed in the in the circumstance that's challenging?
Carmen LaBerge (26:59)
Yeah. When you go through the juicer, what comes out? Is it is it the produce of righteousness
Rob Dayton (27:06)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (27:06)
or not? And the only way I mean again, now we would get if you were like gonna say words of Jesus, which one which which one did you prepare to talk about today?
I would have gone to the vine and the branches. well I would have gone somewhere in the Olivet Discourse, John thirteen to seventeen, and
Rob Dayton (27:22)
My favorite place.
Carmen LaBerge (27:23)
I just feel like you could live in there. I mean you can just
Rob Dayton (27:25)
Forever.
Carmen LaBerge (27:26)
you could just live in there forever in terms of the words of Jesus.
Rob Dayton (27:29)
true.
Carmen LaBerge (27:30)
and so I I would draw something from there and in there we do get the vine and the branches passage and
and so when when I ask the question, where in the word are you today, I'm not just asking a question about have you been in your Bible?
Rob Dayton (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (27:45)
But I'm also asking, where are you in your walk with Jesus, who is the living word of God?
Rob Dayton (27:51)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (27:52)
And he's living now. Right?
Rob Dayton (27:54)
Right.
Carmen LaBerge (27:55)
And so if he has something to say today.
And this is not to suggest that the canon is not closed. I'm not trying to have I'm not, again, theological pie. but Jesus has something to say to the world today. And by the present,
Rob Dayton (28:08)
He's constantly speaking, he never stops speaking.
Carmen LaBerge (28:11)
yeah, and by the present power of his Holy Spirit, he wants you to
Bring him into the conversations. Like when people get frustrated that, well, you know, I was with a group of people today and you know, clearly they don't know what God's thinking about things, and you know, well, you know, clear and I'm thinking to myself, Well, he had you right there. Like,
Rob Dayton (28:29)
Tell Tell
Carmen LaBerge (28:32)
if God didn't get if God didn't find his way into that conversation, it's because you did not on his behalf open your mouth.
Rob Dayton (28:40)
So good.
Carmen LaBerge (28:40)
So
if you're present to represent God, sometimes that is just by the quiet presence of the spirit that is within
Rob Dayton (28:48)
Hm.
Carmen LaBerge (28:49)
you walking into a space. Most times you
Rob Dayton (28:52)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (28:52)
have to open your mouth. And so,
Rob Dayton (28:54)
So good.
Carmen LaBerge (28:55)
yeah, and so I when I think about the way God comes in love in Christ, puts on flesh to dwell among us, full of grace and truth.
And then by the power of the Holy Spirit, wants to do that again and again and again, to replicate it, to multiply it, that through the body of Christ in the world today, he might accomplish more, exceedingly more, than
Rob Dayton (29:18)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (29:20)
he did you know during his earthly ministry. Like I that is jaw-dropping to me. Like I
I wanna see some of that, I wanna witness some of that, and
Rob Dayton (29:29)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (29:30)
wherever possible, whatever potential is in this life, I wanna be used up for that.
Rob Dayton (29:35)
So good. I love that. So so you're saying you you bring into the conversation this disruption about what is going on in me? What is what does it look like to be dwelt in we're dwelt with the Holy Spirit with the Trinity in us. I mean, John fourteen, Jesus is saying
It's everybody. It's the Father. It's Jesus. It's Holy Spirit. It's all three. And then how does that presence gonna manifest first in a relationship? And now you're on the radio. So you have to use words, right? And when no one's looking at you, it's not just your presence, like you have to use these words. And then you're bringing the disruption to how do you how do you feel like what is the the outcome, the purpose of Carmen LaBurge that is the outcome that happens that you just have to passionately see? Is it truly just reconnecting someone?
who is they haven't quite gotten their the right thoughts about who they are and who who they are because the Trinity dwells in them and then you're you're representing that? Well how would you describe it?
Carmen LaBerge (30:36)
it's so I mean, radio is so individual. it's a one on one ministry. It's a one to one ministry.
Rob Dayton (30:43)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (30:44)
And so I'm talking to one person at a time. I mean there
Rob Dayton (30:46)
That's amazing.
Carmen LaBerge (30:47)
there might be a hundred and fifty thousand people listening in any given moment, but and then the podcast, like right, I don't it so part of what
my producer Paul and I pray in advance of every show, like at the beginning of every show. It's a it it's definitely a prayer of, you know, God, you know who's gonna be listening live, you know who's gonna be listening to this, you know, down the road. You also know what they need to hear and the way they need to hear it. So w what you know what we've got planned, but do what only you can do to actually work this according to your will in each one of these people's lives.
Rob Dayton (31:22)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (31:23)
So so Rob, I
I mean, I'm sure that I should have a more strategic answer to your question about like this is the outcome. I I'm just trying to be faithful. That's it. If at the end of a show, you know, how how was, you know, how was the show today? This is a question like I get almost every day from somebody, and I'll say, I hope we were found faithful. I I mean,
Rob Dayton (31:43)
Mm, mm.
Carmen LaBerge (31:45)
I I hope God found it faithful. I I mean he entrusted us with
the resources, the technology, the conversation, the period of time, the listening ears, the open spirit, like right. I mean, I hope we're found faithful. Like that's it. And
Rob Dayton (32:00)
Is that is that include faithful
to your identity, faithful to Holy Spirit's talking to you in the moment?
Carmen LaBerge (32:08)
Yes, that's a really good question. you know this, I mean like they're honest conversations. They're stuff comes up, we talk about it. I mean
Rob Dayton (32:13)
Yeah. stuff goes stuff comes up.
Carmen LaBerge (32:18)
So I feel like if Christians are really willing to let the Holy Spirit control. Like you gotta give up
Control. so submission is another way of saying that, right? If you really are willing to live under authority, under the influence, possessed, like right,
Rob Dayton (32:37)
Come on. Co come on.
Carmen LaBerge (32:39)
then when you open your mouth, you can trust that God is going to, by however it is he's working, use what comes out of your mouth.
to enter the into the ears of the person that he's trying to reach right then in this particular way, and they may or may not hear what you actually said. Like, I don't know how it works. People hear
Rob Dayton (32:59)
Right.
Carmen LaBerge (33:00)
stuff all the time that I will tell you, Rob, I never said. I mean
Rob Dayton (33:04)
Yeah, and and
and when you get to heaven, which I I don't know if you've have you've read Imagine Heaven by John Burke, yeah, and all the NDEs, the near-death experiences. And
Carmen LaBerge (33:13)
Yes.
Rob Dayton (33:14)
so they're saying that you in heaven, in the heavenly space, you don't necessarily need to use words, and then even your thoughts are projecting love and it's a two-way street. So I wonder if even in the setting here on earth, that we we're given permission to ask, Jesus.
Suggests the theme of our prayer requests is that heaven would come to earth in terms of his will. we have a little picture of what that might look like and the NDEs who've reported it back. Like, yeah, you're saying you're speaking to someone. The words may not, if you heard and then we're on the sideline and you heard the words, the outcome is not what actually happened. It was something else that was deeper, something else at the molecular level, at the at the quantum physics level. I don't know how you
you measure the signals of love, but that is also happening. So what you're saying is like, hey, I'm just gonna be committed to showing up, committed to saying what I is completely on my heart. And then I know there's all this other stuff that's going on that I don't know about. And I'm gonna trust that that's happened.
Carmen LaBerge (34:18)
You're reminding me of like a C. S. Lewis's conversation in Surprised by Joy and also you know, sitting in a writing room that sounds like it was very dusty and and as the rays of sunlight came through the window, seeing all the dust. there's just so much going on that we don't see.
Rob Dayton (34:37)
Right.
Carmen LaBerge (34:37)
I mean I the
Rob Dayton (34:38)
But it's happening.
Carmen LaBerge (34:39)
the unseen realm has a lot going on. and and we live in a in a world well in a time period in the world where we are we are focused on what is happening
Rob Dayton (34:54)
Right
on the phone.
Carmen LaBerge (34:55)
Right? And and that's I mean, that as a device is extraordinary. Like I I I mean, as a technology and all of that, the potential to share the gospel and reach the world and go places where, you know, no I mean I I could never physically go, but I can go because of the technology, like all of that is amazing and I think it's killing us. So
I don't know how that connects to the question that you asked, but I am aware that there is more going on in the unseen realm
Rob Dayton (35:26)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (35:27)
than the overwhelming majority of of Christians recognize.
Rob Dayton (35:33)
Wow. Yeah,
Carmen LaBerge (35:33)
I mean this
could this g get us into what scares me most about the time in which we live, but you know. I don't know if we have time for that.
Rob Dayton (35:39)
what scares you most?
Carmen LaBerge (35:41)
What scares me most is
How Christians I know are playing with and trifling with the occult. Well, so
Rob Dayton (35:47)
Yeah. interesting. And how do they how
do they do that? Is that is that
Carmen LaBerge (35:53)
Well
Rob Dayton (35:54)
because of what we're watching? You know, we're watching all this death and
Carmen LaBerge (35:59)
I'll just give
you well, I'll give you a few examples. One just happened this week. so Meta AI now offers a new tool to turn your photos that you've saved that that may be a profile picture. It may be something that's in your file and they have access to it because you've uploaded it to Instagram or to or to Facebook at any point in time and now it's theirs. and they're now offering it back to you as a tarot card.
Rob Dayton (36:23)
my gosh.
what do you feel like the is the intention there? Do you can you have you sniffed it out?
Carmen LaBerge (36:26)
Well,
first of all, everybody's clicking on it. Like
Rob Dayton (36:31)
There's a lot of people going after and looking at it.
Carmen LaBerge (36:33)
And so and like, this is kind of fun. This is kind of fun. This is just fun. This is harmless. This doesn't this isn't really it's not really a tarot card. Even if it were really a tarot card, I'm not really doing it because it is demonic.
Rob Dayton (36:49)
it's like meta's using your timeline to show different emotions on as in a picture and then is there something it says? I mean, this is crazy.
your concern, this is we're this is based on the question of what's your your fear is that Christians are getting into the occult and this tarot card thing, which is you know clearly more of a you know cultist thing,
Carmen LaBerge (37:08)
There is there is Carmen
stylized on a tarot card. Look, she has a Halo.
Rob Dayton (37:12)
Wow. Okay.
Yeah, so so just for people who are not watching on YouTube, the the picture is like a tarot card card where it's more painted. It's not an exact picture. So Meta's taking the exact picture and then making it look more tarot card ish.
Carmen LaBerge (37:29)
giving you your word at the top and then your like the the qualities of that at the bottom. There's
Rob Dayton (37:34)
Yeah. So maybe what you
would do is you would you would you would buy a set and then have them printed and then like or maybe even on the phone flip through them like automatically this one comes up and then that means something. You know, it's interesting because I'm I'm I'm a true believer that Satan can't do he's not a he's not a creator. He's a distorter of creation. And so all these things in the demonic world have are rooted in
Original goodness. In other words, the connections, the God is a prophetic God, he knows everything that's going to happen, he knows everything that has happened, he's all knowing. And so and somehow, and I love this thought, I don't think I've even said it out loud. Somehow that's connected to love because he is love, and somehow knowing is love. I'm gonna have to think about that one. And then so what when the occult, when we're we're drawn into the occult, we're actually drawn into something that.
I would say is based on truth somewhere, but highly distorted.
Carmen LaBerge (38:32)
Masquerading as light.
Rob Dayton (38:34)
Yeah. And what's crazy to me is that Christians, when we read this Bible, I mean, even a donkey is talking in that setting. There are these angels, you know, to our pre-conversation. There's all these things that are just incredible in this other world. And somehow we don't chase those. We kind of go, what are you talking about, angels? But in the occult space.
We may go, yeah, because cause we've heard about the Ouija board, we've heard about the tarot cards, we've heard about fortune telling, we've heard about you know, the lines on your palm reading, tea leaves, all these things. We even use like read the tea leaves. isn't that interesting that we that we can tend to pursue those things that are kind of known versus the biblical reality? What are your thoughts on that?
Carmen LaBerge (39:18)
Well, I would say in some of the observations you've just made, if we could replace read the tea leaves with read the writing on the wall, we have replaced something secular with something biblical.
Rob Dayton (39:29)
And your references the in literally to Daniel and the writing on the wall and then he reads it.
Carmen LaBerge (39:34)
Because then that gives you the opportunity in the conversation to say, Do you know where that comes from?
Rob Dayton (39:39)
That's so good. Yeah, or let's
Carmen LaBerge (39:40)
Because
Rob Dayton (39:41)
let's let's imagine other things too. Like I'm trying to make it not churchianity. what would you say?
Carmen LaBerge (39:46)
Yeah. Well, let's take the
let's take the wise men, the magi. I mean, they are astrologers.
Rob Dayton (39:51)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (39:52)
Right? So there it so
Rob Dayton (39:54)
I was thinking about this just this morning. Go.
Carmen LaBerge (39:57)
there is astronomy. Well, okay. Are they astronomers or are they astrologers? See, you you took it when I said they're astrologers, but they're not. They're astronomers.
And God's the first astronomer. He's the one that put this put the stars in the heavens. And it was kind of seemingly an afterthought, if you go back and read the creation narrative. and the stars.
So, you know, when we think about the stars that we know about, the way that they're talked about in scripture, how could anybody have missed the bright, shiny one over Bethlehem? But everybody, it sounds like pretty much missed it. So there's a lot going on in the created order. God's got some people looking for it and other people not looking for it. who was Daniel? How did Daniel end up in that?
Rob Dayton (40:42)
Space. Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (40:42)
situation in that
position in those kingdoms so that hundreds of years later, when
Rob Dayton (40:48)
There it is.
Carmen LaBerge (40:48)
the Messiah would be born, you know, somebody'd have like a scroll to unravel and say, you know what? There was a guy that talked about that star. And it's it's the proclamation
Rob Dayton (40:58)
And the t and the timing
and the number of days.
Carmen LaBerge (41:01)
I mean, like, really? So
Rob Dayton (41:03)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (41:03)
we've moved someone just saying like we've moved from magic from the magi
Rob Dayton (41:07)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (41:08)
into a conversation about a an event in history, a person in history, historical events, and we could talk about all of that and the kingdoms of this world and the rise and fall of them, and the preservation of God's word over centuries
Rob Dayton (41:22)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (41:23)
in a pagan culture.
They preserved the truth. So what was it about Daniel and
Rob Dayton (41:30)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (41:31)
what Daniel taught them that was worthy of preservation for hundreds of years, so that there would literally be people looking for the sign in the sky when it happened. So
Rob Dayton (41:43)
It really
is a glimpse of Daniel's influence in a pre-Christian or a non-God space. His influence, and we don't read about it really. You know, there is some in Daniel about his influence, but to think that these people, these magi, are connected to that Daniel 9 scripture, which now tells us that.
Daniel was instructing other people. He was the wisest of the wise. So he's instructing these other people who are trying to be wise. And then that gets recorded. And then 400, I don't forget the the death, like 400 years later, these wise men are thinking, here we go. This is what Daniel talked about. Let's look for the star. Let's go. I mean, that is just so crazy to me.
Carmen LaBerge (42:34)
And
and let's go, let's pack up the treasure that's fit for a king, not just any king. Let's pack up the treasure, let's haul it across the desert in this giant caravan. And then they are so surprised when the Romans aren't looking at the same thing. They don't know.
Rob Dayton (42:51)
They don't know. They don't
know. And why why, Harold, don't you know about this?
Carmen LaBerge (42:56)
How could you possibly not know that the king of the Jews has been born in your kingdom? How do you not know this?
Rob Dayton (43:04)
So wild. there is something I want to ask you. I do want to I would do a little theological pie slicing and then and then take it into the space that you and I are in. So I want to go from a theological construct and then into what how what our conversation is how do we how do we actually view and see ourselves and our identity with the Trinity dwelling in us? And I'm wondering if you've thought about this, because I I remember exactly.
When this happened to me, because you're a lover of the Olivet Discourse. I remember exactly in 2012, I was listening to some sermon and you know, it's almost like Holy Spirit was like, Hey, look at this, hey, look at this. And like, can you imagine Holy Spirit in a sermon distracting you? Like like what? And it and it was almost like, What are you doing? I'm trying to pay attention. And it's like, No,
Carmen LaBerge (43:51)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dayton (43:51)
look at this, look at this. And he was talking to me about,
John 14, and you know, I go prepare a place for you. And, you know, after years of chasing that, that kind of highlighting by Holy Spirit, the the theological pie I want to slice with you is that in in 2 Samuel 7, we get the prophetic word given to David that everyone refers to hence that the promise of David, the the forever king.
Described to Ryan on his throne. And, you know, it happens because David's like feeling guilty about the palace he just built. And then God's in a tent. So the thought comes of a guilt that I'm going to build this house. And then Nathan's like, yeah, go do it. But the next day, Nathan's like, No, here's what God says. Did I really ask for this? I didn't really ask for this. Like, what are you thinking? And then we get the Davidic promise where
God through Nathan speaks to David, Hey, I'm gonna build a house for you. You think you're in a house? I'm gonna build a house for you, and I'm gonna have someone from your line. When you're I think the line is when when you're when you're resting with your ancestors, I will raise up. And and then and and then I think it's Isaiah that quotes the root of Jesse. There, you know, it's all throughout the the the prophecy that follows in the Old Testament.
I'm going to raise this guy up and he's going to prepare the house for you. And and then, and I get a lot super confused because I was like, Well, the Bible says that, you know, David says, Well, it's Solomon. But then I'm I'm reading all these other people say, No, it wasn't Solomon because he's not the forever king. And he's so he's not the one to build the house. And then you get to this John 14, and he's like, My in my father's house there's just many rooms if I've not if it were not so.
What I have told you that I'm going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come back and I'll take you to where to be with me that you may be also where I am. And I take that as where I am, why where I am right now. I am one. Everything I've talked to in the olive discourse was a great thing, is like, I am in the Father, the Father is in me. And then he has this prayer that you also would be in us. And so I think we take, this is the question. I think we take that John 14 as like.
Someday we'll be in the Father's house. And I have come to take it based on what Holy Spirit's trigger triggered in me is that no, that actually I am now the Father's house. I it happened. I am one of the rooms in the Father's house. And that has been instructive for me to do what we've been talking about is actually carrying with me this: I am in him, he is in me. This is happening right now.
What do you think about that theology? I've always wondered, like, you know, in your professional sense, what what is it? What how have you wrestled with that?
Carmen LaBerge (46:37)
First of all, I completely agree. we are already living an eternal life. This happen
Rob Dayton (46:41)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (46:42)
I mean, this happens to be the earthbound physical expression of it, but we're already living an eternal life. And I think that until believers understand
What Paul means in like Galatians 2 20, he says it other places as well. Peter says it as well. But until you really understand that you're already dead. Like when you say you're already living in the Father's house, it's because you have an understanding that you're already dead. Like the
Rob Dayton (47:08)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (47:09)
life the life that I live is no longer mine. Whatever
Rob Dayton (47:13)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (47:14)
it is that God wants to do with this mortal flesh for as long as he wants to let it, you know.
frolic around on the earth. It's his to do with what he wants. Absolutely. I am all in. It is not, it is not that Jesus gets some segment of my time or my life or my heart or my wealth or what or my He gets it all. It's all his. He can He can have it all. When I gave all of myself that I understood to all of him that I understood, I didn't do it like with something in reserve. I
Rob Dayton (47:47)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (47:48)
I've been all from the
Rob Dayton (47:49)
All in.
Carmen LaBerge (47:49)
moment I got in, I've been all in. No, no take backs, no Indian giving, whatever. Like I'm I'm all in. And so that would be my encouragement if you're watching and listening right now and you've always sort of like wondered what sort of like wack-a-doodle Rob is. It's because he's all in. Like, right? It's like it
Rob Dayton (48:09)
That's so
true.
Carmen LaBerge (48:10)
It's because you're all in. It's you don't it's not like you see your life as a pie and there's like a slice of it that belongs to Jesus or even three quarters of it that belongs to Jesus and you're reserving a quarter for yourself and that's you know, ooh, that's the worldly stewardship part or whatever. No. You know, it's not like, well, he's got my household, but over here I've got a house on the side. I mean, no. It it we're all in. And so, it
Rob Dayton (48:35)
Love that.
Carmen LaBerge (48:36)
it makes it makes for a life of
gratitude for all that there is in a given
Rob Dayton (48:42)
One.
Carmen LaBerge (48:42)
day,
I appreciate
that what Jesus is helping us see is the Father. He
Rob Dayton (48:49)
connection with the father.
Carmen LaBerge (48:51)
He came to reveal the Father. He came to reveal the kingdom, to inaugurate it, to initiate it. And so maybe the connecting point here is to the Lord's Prayer. because I do think in the Lord's Prayer, like
We're building a house that we're gonna live in.
Rob Dayton (49:07)
Interesting.
Carmen LaBerge (49:09)
asked
Rob Dayton (49:08)
Is that in the way
we think about it or the words we say?
Carmen LaBerge (49:11)
So it first of all it starts with the perspective of where I am and where God is, who God is
Rob Dayton (49:14)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (49:17)
and who I am. I mean just the word our just the word well, our is means it's for all of us, but also the word father. I mean like if if you only ever get that far in the Lord's Prayer
Rob Dayton (49:27)
You've done a long long way. Yeah. And Jesus was the f Jesus
Carmen LaBerge (49:28)
You've you've really you've really gone as yeah.
Rob Dayton (49:31)
was the first to introduce us to that concept that God is y your father.
Carmen LaBerge (49:36)
And the only one who makes it possible for you to use that language. Like the fact that Jesus, who is God's son, gives us access to the Father with the same intimacy that he has, like that you're going home. You're when you say father to God, you've already you've already said a lifetime of theology.
Because that is the relationship that Jesus came not only to reveal but to restore. And so when he invites you to pray, our Father, he's giving you something that uniquely belongs to him, which is that intimate access to the one who sits on the throne.
Rob Dayton (50:21)
So good. Yeah, because Jesus was the son of God, but also a man who had to connect and had to actually believe. This is this is an interesting part about my journey is that as a man, he had to believe he was the son of God. that was his work. That was his repentance. That was his journey. And then and then he's giving that to us that you also.
He is your father. And so, like, you don't need to go, like, I the thing that drives me crazy on on Sunday mornings is when a pastor says, Welcome to the Father's house. And I'm just like, you know, Stephen died. He's the first martyr saying that what you're saying is not true. for saying that, that God does not live in structures. It's like we really need to embrace that we can say that Lord's Prayer, our Father who are in heaven, because we are in his house right now.
He is in us. We are in him. Somehow there's a two-way street there. And we are really abiding. We're dwelling in his presence. He's right here. He's not far. And that's I'm thinking about all the journey of this conversation is that that's what we need to do. We need to take that into every single conversation, this identity. You said identity that we are the Father's house. That person we're talking to is an image bearer, is a son or daughter of God.
And that clarifies everything. Wow. So cool.
Carmen LaBerge (51:45)
Have you
have you ever read it's really short little monograph, Robert Munger, My Heart, Christ Home? Okay. So yeah. So that
Rob Dayton (51:52)
of course. Yeah. I mean that that was like growing up. That was like the thing.
Carmen LaBerge (51:57)
image that image comes to mind as well. Like, in terms of of your life as a structure, as a building, as a house, how
Rob Dayton (52:05)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (52:05)
much of it are you giving Christ access to? Are you inviting him into?
Rob Dayton (52:10)
And which areas are you not?
Carmen LaBerge (52:12)
Yeah. Which areas are you
Rob Dayton (52:13)
That's so good.
Carmen LaBerge (52:14)
are you still not letting him into? Because, you know, God is he is interested in every square inch of the kingdom and every human being in it. And so when we pr
Rob Dayton (52:25)
There's nothing he's not interested in.
Carmen LaBerge (52:26)
no, nothing. And so when we pray, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, I do wonder how many people are praying that personally.
Rob Dayton (52:36)
Right.
Carmen LaBerge (52:37)
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth in me on my square inch
Rob Dayton (52:43)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (52:44)
as it is in heaven.
Rob Dayton (52:46)
Yeah, and I think that there's such permission in that prayer for your imagination. I I know in the Christian space we don't we don't talk about imagination enough, but if you're going to repent, if you're gonna change the way you think, imagination is your pathway. Imagination is where your connection to God is. So if you can't begin to imagine what it's like in heaven.
And then bring those thoughts, those imaginations into this space. So it's almost like it's a partnering. I see it as a partnering with God. It's like, yes, you know, your kingdom come, your will be done as it is in heaven. And let me partner with you. Let me think about, let me imagine what that looks like. Is there any, is there any illness? No. Is there all love? Yes. Is everyone extremely important?
And and in their own way created uniquely to be like God, I would say designed for love. Yes. How can we bring that imagination? And one of the things I notice about you, Carmen, that I really appreciate and then I've come to know for myself is that if you have two things, if you have gratitude and awe, and I have experienced you as someone who has deep gratitude and then also a constant stream of awe.
Which keeps you inquisitive about things, keeps you like, there's there's another little piece of treasure here that I'm going to discover and I'm going to be in awe about it. And what I've come to learn is that those two things, gratitude and awe, if that if we practice those things, that's the best way to change the way we think. That is the best way to follow Jesus' first command. Change the way you think and come to the way I think of love. Is does that resonate with you?
Carmen LaBerge (54:29)
One hundred percent. I would say gratitude and awe, and curiosity is in there somewhere. I mean,
Rob Dayton (54:34)
Yes, yes.
Carmen LaBerge (54:35)
I'm I'm endlessly curious. I think people are interesting, I think the world is fascinating. I mean I there's really not I mean, people will be like, What's the show about? I'm like, everything. Sign I mean like Seinfeld
Rob Dayton (54:47)
Who knows?
Carmen LaBerge (54:48)
Seinfeld was the show about nothing. The Reconnect is the show about everything. Like I you know,
Rob Dayton (54:52)
Love that.
Carmen LaBerge (54:53)
so I I do think
there is something in every moment. there
Rob Dayton (54:57)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (54:58)
is certainly something in every day, there's something in every person, in every encounter, in ev I mean, I I'm curious to know why I am where I am at any given moment. And I trust that it's because for some reason God needs me there. Like
Rob Dayton (55:13)
Come on.
Carmen LaBerge (55:13)
I I'm looking for the divine appointments that He has set.
And I think when the the number of times that you've talked about, you know, the way that we think, I'll just maybe encourage folks, like here's here's one of the sort of trains of thought on that.
and in in the margin of my Bible, I just write TMOC Every time there's something in there that is evidence of the mind of Christ. So T
Rob Dayton (55:35)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (55:36)
T-MOC is my little just little acronym.
Rob Dayton (55:38)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (55:38)
And it's just this trigger for me. there is a way that Jesus is thinking about something, that
Rob Dayton (55:43)
Wow.
Carmen LaBerge (55:43)
the mind of Christ is being revealed that's heavenly, it's not earthly. And then just to encourage yourself with this kind of pattern of self-talk.
What am I thinking about?
How am I thinking about what I'm thinking about?
Rob Dayton (55:56)
So good.
Carmen LaBerge (55:57)
Why am I thinking about what I'm thinking about the way I'm thinking about it? And does that align with the way I understand Jesus thinks about this person, this place, this thing, this circumstance, this moment, this question, whatever, So, because that's where I might need to then repent. Right?
Rob Dayton (56:14)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (56:16)
So what are you thinking about right now? Maybe you're thinking about the day that is now behind. Maybe you're thinking about the day that is yet ahead. maybe you're thinking about a particular issue or pain or concern or challenge or grief. Okay, how are you thinking about that? Are you thinking about it from a worldly perspective or are you thinking about it from a kingdom perspective?
Which which kingdom?
Rob Dayton (56:35)
So good.
Carmen LaBerge (56:36)
Which kingdom? Small K, big K? Like which kind of thinking
Rob Dayton (56:38)
Mm-hmm.
Carmen LaBerge (56:39)
am I am I thinking about this through? Because we're all thinking about what we're thinking about through a particular lens. You'll hear some people call it a worldview. But there's a lens, a perspective, a set of glasses. Like you're looking, you're thinking about what you're thinking about in a particular way. And maybe you've never thought about how you're thinking. So like that's the starting point, I think, of the conversation in terms of evaluating my thought life.
Rob Dayton (57:05)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (57:05)
And because I want every thought to be taken captive, right?
Rob Dayton (57:07)
There it is. Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (57:08)
And so then, okay, once it's taken captive, then what sets it free? Like what I I, you know, so because I want to be free in my expression. So how do I get from every thought captive to
Rob Dayton (57:19)
Mm.
Carmen LaBerge (57:20)
the free expression of thought that I know is aligned with Christ? Well, that's a process that is cultivating the mind of Christ on the matters of this day. and so I'm thinking about what I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about how I'm thinking about what I'm thinking about, and then I'm asking
The why question. Why am I thinking about what I'm thinking about the way I'm thinking about it? Am I am I currently motivated by fear or by love? By gratitude or by a a sense of desperation?
my encouragement, because so many people are just like, let me give you a peace of my mind. Like, that's the world we seem to live in. The like peace of mind world.
And what people don't need another piece of your mind. People need the peace of the mind of Christ. And we are in
Rob Dayton (58:03)
Hm. Yeah, how he how
he would think about a situation that brings hope, brings life.
Carmen LaBerge (58:07)
Well, yeah, peace.
People give like a like a piece of their mind, P I E C E, and
Rob Dayton (58:14)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (58:14)
what people need is the peace, P E A C E. They
Rob Dayton (58:18)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (58:19)
need the peace of the mind of Christ, not a piece of our mind. And so
Rob Dayton (58:22)
That's so good.
Carmen LaBerge (58:22)
I just I think that when we think about what we're thinking about and we think about how we're thinking about what we're thinking about and then why we're thinking about what we're thinking about, love has to be the motivation in that last part. For God so loved the
Rob Dayton (58:33)
Yes.
Carmen LaBerge (58:34)
world, he's not about condemnation.
Rob Dayton (58:36)
Yeah.
Carmen LaBerge (58:37)
Well God so loved the world that he gave his only son. So
Rob Dayton (58:40)
The second verse, he didn't
come to judge the world, but to save it.
Carmen LaBerge (58:43)
Amen.
Rob Dayton (58:44)
That's so cool. I love that. That's a great closing thought. And I would really encourage our listeners to back up again and really listen to Carmen's questions. They're probably some of the most powerful questions we can ask ourselves is what are we thinking about? What it what is our prevailing thought?
Think about what you're thinking about is the way to transform your mind. Remember, we're all just trying to transform the way we think. And Carmen's language to be consistent with the mind of Christ. I love your note in your Bible. This is a mind of Christ thought. That's a great way of bringing attention. And then I would encourage our listeners to the I think the journal prompt for today is Holy Spirit, show me a thought that I have, that I'm having that's pervasive.
That is inconsistent with the mind of Christ. Show me a thought. And then again, as we always do in our practice, we're gonna journal from Holy Spirit the answer to us. So I encourage you to walk in that process. You can hear the voice of God. So be brave. And I think the second question is: Holy Spirit, give me the the prevailing thought you want me to have that is like Christ's.
And again, and I think if if one thing, Carmen, we've emphasized here is this as long as you just change the way you think to be consistent with heaven, to be consistent with Jesus, to be consistent with love, if you would just change the way you think, consistent with eternity, better understanding of what death really is, it's actually a pathway to comfort for you and your life. If we would just focus on that, we would be significantly different. Carmen.
LeBurge, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was so awesome to finally have this moment to to talk to you, not about Hunter
Carmen LaBerge (1:00:30)
That was really fun.
Rob Dayton (1:00:31)
X life, but about you and what's going on in your brain.
Carmen LaBerge (1:00:34)
It is about a hundred X life though, right? I mean yeah. So
Rob Dayton (1:00:36)
It is.
It is all multiplying the words of Jesus is another way to say that. So
Carmen LaBerge (1:00:41)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you
for the opportunity. I really it was fun. Thank you so much.
Rob Dayton (1:00:45)
So good. Okay. And listeners, go get do those journal prompts. We will see you next week.